History of Aqua-Soft

Ok, as stated in the title, What is the name of this site?

It has Aqua in the name, right? Ok, that noted...let's continue.

Aqua-Soft and AquaXP were formed with one thing in common:

>>The love of Apple's OS X gui.<<

This also includes:

*ease of use

*productivity

*compatibility

*the ORIGINAL look and feel of Aqua and Brushed

What is happening, tho, is quite different.

Cassiel tried to make apps that were duplicates of Apple's great apps. He wanted to stay true to the form and not budge from the origins of each app. But, instead, a whole onslaught of requests came in for Windows style enhancements and skinning engines. Finally, the pressure got so bad, we lost an incredible programmer. I really don't care what your feelings were about him or his attitude, I personally condoned it. He had every right to get snippy with the lot of you.

Cassiel did his programming for free. I'd like to see more of you do the same, release an app, get 1000 stupid requests for non-needed additions, then go quietly back to programming. You'd be pissed off too.

"Oh, but Duckie, you don't understand. Cassiel had an attitude and wasnt approachable for the additions I tried to let him know I wanted"

BAH!

Good, you were probably asking for some stupid feature that doesnt exist in the original Mac OS app, so you deserved it.

And that's not all. MrAqua, probably one of the busiest contributors to the community at this time has been so overrun with even MORE stupid and ridiculous requests for Windows style features in his apps, and now he is debating on if he will even continue. (Dont start spreading rumors that I said he was leaving either, cause that is NOT what I said...read it again.)

Yes, that's right. MrAqua is debating what he will do in the next week. Might mean a complete change. Who knows.

Mr Aqua's original intent was to port the real Safari to Windows, but so many of you started complaining and demanding Windows features in what is supposed to be a MAC app that his original ideas are now diluted. All of his apps were fine the way they were, but everyone was like "OOOooo, I want a milk theme" and "I dont like brushed, change it" so he had to add crappy skinning code to appease the masses.

I apologize to MrAqua and Cassiel for not only using their names as an example, but also for all the people who bothered them with ridiculous Windows feature requests in what was supposed to be a Mac style app.

Let's get this straight, ok?

If you want a skinnable Browser, try Phoenix.

If you want a more realistic Safari, leave MrAqua alone to do as he pleases.

If you want skinnable Stickies, try MS's new one due out this summer.

If you want an OS X style stickies, try Cassiels.

If you want a skinnable Address Book, try Google, there is bound to be something.

If you want a realistic OS X style Address Book, try Mr Aqua's.

If you want a skinnable Explorer, try the ones listed on www.virtualplastic.net.

If you want a more realistic Mac Finder, try Alilm's or Mr Aqua's.

If you want Windows crap, stay with Windows.

If you want Mac OS style stuff, then shut up and take what's given to you.

Now, in conclusion, I may get flames from people saying (God knows I've gotten enough emails and IM's):

"Oh, there goes Duckie on a rant again"

or

"Duckie, your a leader in this community, ease up man"

or my recent favorite

"You can't win at this, just dont worry about it. People will do it. Move on and accept it."

SINCE WHEN!?!

I've been a contributing member of this community for a while(and I'm NOT flaunting that, either). What I am saying is that I do NOT have to sit back and let anything happen and be some pussy whilst little whiners grab-ass there way thru our boards complaining about the lack of features and flaming developers.

I do NOT have to take it. and I wont.

and niether should you.

Enough.

Leave the apps as they are, developers. Keep them Mac-like and ignore the whining.

I mean, c'mon...isnt the reason we do this to escape the boundaries of Windows?

P.S. Please, I dont need people saying 'Right on, Duckie, you tell them!"

#26014

A small, and friendly, rebuttal. Before I continue however, let me express my respect and admiration for Duckie, Jef and everyone else that has contributed so whole heartedly to the WinXP Aqua scene. You guys have given so much it's indescribable, and that needs to be kept in mind as I write the following:

As a founder of AquaSoft, the original Aqua skinning site, you have it partially right Duckie. This site was founded with the sole intent of bringing the best Aqua experience to Windows users. This is slightly different than what is stated in the post above, as we never intended for Windows to lose any functionality. Perhaps AquaSoft has changed since the 'founders left' (sounds like something from a Sci-Fi show), but I would like to offer the following examples at how this has made a difference in content that has been offered at AquaSoft over the years.

1.) The original OSX Aqua icons under Windows 2000 did not support full native alpha blending. At the time we actually had an in depth discussion about keeping the solid white backgrounds to icons. One side was that in a true 100% Aqua simulation, the white backgrounds would never be noticed as folder backgrounds in OSX are natively white. Instead we decided to take the extra step of cutting out icons and remaking them with transparency so they could work in any Windows customized enviroment. This is the first instance of veering away from 'hardcore' Aqua emulation and instead combining aspects of Windows customization with OSX style.

2.) The original AquaFinder by Jef offered several features, including a windowshade option, that wern't available in the OSX finder. The reason is that at the time Jef wanted a full featured app that not only emulated the OSX Finder perfectly, but took it another step by adding third party and true to life Windows features. In this case it was once again the focus of Aqua style with the flexibility of Windows. Many original emails between the founders pertained to our thankfulness that Windows was far more customizable than OSX, and we always used Windows flexibility to it's fullest.

3.) Not a specific example, but a few points: Take a look at resexcellence for just a few of the GUI modifications and third party add-ons that OSX users have access to. Does the average Windows user want to limit themselves to out of the box OSX? If so, then take away great themes like Smooth Stripes or Milk. Dump alternate poofs and dock skins. And please, let's forget custom icons. And whatever we do, make certain that Windows is ONLY modified towards true OSX.

Obviously, that's silly.

This site focuses on the combining both OS's: flexibility of Windows with the sweet, pristine look and feel of OSX. Some members are purists, most aren't. In the future I might make the simple, yet effective, suggestion for developers that want to make pure OSX apps on Windows - tell people what you're doing. Tell people that you want to build a pure Finder without any Windows or third party features. Keep it straightforward and people will understand for the most part. This is a great community, and if a few people want to make an off-beat suggestion about adding a non-OSX feature to your pure app, then take it with a grain of salt...maybe they just don't know.

But getting pissy, as some developers have, and getting irritated, as some members have, is just uncalled for. If your building an app for yourself, then keep it to yourself. If your building it for the community, opening the app in a beta test to the community, then please don't get in a huff and leave if you get feedback from the community.

Hopefully this will be taken well. I don't own this site, I have no say in this site (it's true, I walked away from the Aqua community because I was tired of the look for awhile). But I played an important role in founding this community, and I just hate to see petty differences over silly things.

Keep developing guys: I appreciate you. Keep skinning, because I love seeing the goods coming from here (as does everyone else). And sure enough, this community has contributed some of the most incredible tweaks and apps for windows of ANY customization site in the world. I love it!!!!

Hope you feel the love

deadzombie

aka Straytoaster

General pain in the ass and internet nomad.

#26026

DeadZombie

Let me first state that your works in the past, and even your conributions now, have always been appreciated. Your longevity in this community shows in your dedication and honesty.

Now for the expected rebuttal...

What may have gotten lost in my words is the simple fact that programmers arent given the time to develop before stupid requests are made for features that shouldnt even be implemented until they are close to final release.

Skinning an app is important to some, yes. But making it a requirement of beta's? That's even MORE silly.

I applaud jef for never faultering and always sticking with his proprietary controls. More developers should do the same. That way, the original vison doesnt get lost in a multitude of feature requests.

I'm all for usability and interoperable apps. I'm all for adding third party style features found in some OS X apps ported to Windows(read:shading, etc.). What I am NOT for is all the froo froo crap that makes it pretty to satisfy some hard core geek who just HAS to have his WHOLE desktop look like (and no offense to the author of the following, it's just an example) Rhapsodized or some other nonsense.

Big deal.

Aww, poor baby...your app has a brushed texture and your GUI is Makki, or whatever. Waahhhhh.

So, my original intent was not to bash the ability to enhance the apps. That should be left until right before final release. My intent is to weed out the garbage and stop people from scaring off good designers.

MrAqua has a good idea. But his idea got lost in an overwhelmingly ridiculous amount of feature request better left until the end of development. Had he been able to focus on the reality of it and not all the whining, he might have had better versions available now.

Yes, our community is a vast one, with many cultures and many age groups (and, as I saw from that poll last month--alot of them ARE young HAHA, told you! hehe) and even more taste differences. That does not mean, however, that we must sacrifice quality for quantity.

So, all said--sure, additions to EXISTING apps is ok...but ONLY when they are closer to finalization than things like Savanna are.

Namaste

#26041

Duckie:

Excellent reply. I appreciate that you cleared a few points up for me in your original statement, and I'd like to respond:

You are absolutely right.

The reason I say this is that I've gone back and read some of these developer threads, and they are nuts. Most of the community is well behaved and polite, but some of these guys need to chill. Flaming developers over anything (or flaming any member) is uncalled for. Bugging the developers is just silly, especially over things like what type of skin an app has. This can easily be cleared up by addressing the two sides of development:

Members need to make their request, and let it drop. If a member is passionate about an issue for a developing app, give a few reasons for the suggested change that are well thought out and will benefit everyone that uses the app. Then drop the subject. The developer will contact you if they want more input. Flaming or bugging a developer means you need to be beaten. When beta testing an app for a developer, make a list of bug issues that need to be addressed within the established apps parameters, a list of positive issues that have caught your attention (this encourages developers to keep going), and if your on good terms with developers (really good terms), a short list of recommended improvements. And leave it at that. Let the developer come to you in their own time.

Developers need to keep a single issue in mind: People get excited over cool new apps. This should guide the developer in a few stages of creating an app in managing the input they receive, as follows:

1.) Announcing the intent. If you come to a large community and announce what your doing in the bare bones design stage, expect alot of input. You don't want that kind of input as a developer, keep it to yourself and a few trusted people. Moby did this with Mobydock, and it worked well for him.

2.) Development. This is where many developers start threads in large communities to show screenshots to stir up a little excitement. All I have to say is if your going to throw chum to the sharks, expect a little blood and alot of teeth!!! If you don't want the input, keep it to yourself and a few trusted people. (See a trend here?)

3.) Beta testing. Keep your beta testing closed to a handful of people you know. Lay out guidelines of what kind of response you expect and within a specific time frame. If you are going to be open to suggestions about improvement, let your testers know, if not, save them some time and let them know you only want the functionality tested as is...nothing more, nothing less. It will save you alot of long replies.

It's not that I think I know better than everyone, it's just that these simple tips will save everyone alot of grief when developing anything from a new OSX App on Windows to a new WB4 skin. Try them once, if they don't work, throw em out.

And Duckie, thanks for the kind words. Who'd have thought that after two years at any community I could return and still receive a little admiration - it's almost shocking!!! (I do, after all, seem to get kicked out of a few communities from time to time ) I really hope people show you the same kindness - I've watched you grow and contribute tons to this community over time and you and a handful of others really deserve applause for your dedication and commitment.

#26093

--- Edited ---

before i edited this, I wasnt fully agreeing w/ duckie's first post in here since i was pointed over a single evidance thread where mr aqua snapped over one single post assuming we have spoiled developers. I was wrong...its a lot beyond that after talking to MrAqua himself. I sincerely appologize.

Still, in general I have this fear developers may jump on the opportunity of getting spoiled and become over-sensitive about any meaningless reply. I am still worried that they may flip over, over something ridiculous and immidiately threaten to leave the community assuming they are righteous and should be chased after. But so far its not REALLY like that.

**Duckie is absolutly right**. **This site is dedicated to aqua full throttle**, of course anything else is warmly welcomed to be distributed as well.

Here is a quote from MrAqua himself, just so you guys know why we were really worried btw:

...I have let all of you to be my beta testers. When I started it I didn't know that people will abuse this decision of mine. I have ended up with at least 50% of redundant posts from people who are just too lazy to read previous posts.

....

....MAC look and feel. Are we sure that we are still doing Aqua applications? People are using so much other things, that Aqua look is almost out of date... Isn't that why we exist? My Roots application gets swept away by application which offers 25% of Roots features, but it offers skins that are not even aqua-like, only aqua skin is my Brushed theme....

...I will not stop developing Aqua applications. But I am sick and tired of nagging: "Why don't you support Phonenix like Bookmarks? What about Phoenix like tabs? And Mozzila engine? I really want to have that function from IE (or Mozzila, or Phoenix)? IT IS NOT SAFARI! ...

.....I am not a man with great ego. I don't want taps on my shoulder and great congrats. I just want my computer to look like Mac. I have knowledge of programming and I am sharing it with others because I want to....

----------

There are more good stuff beyond that - but the rules are changing now and MrAqua will no longer announce his apps but aquasoft/axp Staff will (this includes s.members/developers as well). IT WILL BE ANNOUNCED IN FRONT PAGE OF OUR SITE, with a link to bug reports thread, and basically thats it. The times when 'feJ' worked on his apps were absolutly fantastic - and thats how it should be now. Obviously there are many people who're oblivious to whats happening lately or are completely n00bz to know where and how to post, but nevertheless, Duckie and the rest of the senior members here, will not have to explain these things constantly anymore, since it action time.

---------------

I wish to add that we should cherish and perpetuate Deadzombie's post as 'rules' for new developers and the site in general. <-- I'll personaly add it to the rules once we can have everything prepared as to where and when to add them.

---------------

Lastly, from now on, mods and admins will moderate and manage the forum without any further warnings for few reasons:

* complying with the board's rules, which can be found in General posts

* keeping the order of the topics

* One of the basic agreements in which you join the site for.

#26246

I'd like to add two items that have little to do with the content of this thread, but still compliment the topic nicely:

First, the title of this thread "How to shut up and take what's given" gives me chills. I couldn't have named any thread better.

Second, anyone that watches Duckies web cam knows he is full of wisdom and wonder. Just thought people needed to know this.

#28595

I can see that these Aqua App things have been discontinued. But could someone tell me and all the other ****ies out there what they were and why they were discontinued. And who cassiel was and what the fuss about him leaving was.

#33135

Apple sent a letter to Jef (hope its not Jeff) telling him to stop development.

#33136

why? what were they that got apple worked up?

#33140

I cant find the original thread but as I remember it was a "intellectual copyright" issue.

#33143

its no big deal, the apps are still out there, hell even try kazaa lol

#33145

Very interesting Timan. Following this idea, would it be possible to write the History of A-S?

When did it born?

What difficulties did the founders find along the time?

Has A-S change since its beginings?

And so on :baby:

#33149

Thanks Timan, I've never seen them on Kazaa though.

#33154

Thanks for telling us why! I have wondered about this for a long time, but never asked becasue it seemed to be "tabu". Thanks

#33166

Hey you guys, the ****ie know about what happend, so I think we should stop this thread before we get Jef into more trouble... OK

#33173

Originally posted by Ender@Jun 15 2003, 04:02 PM

Very interesting Timan. Following this idea, would it be possible to write the History of A-S?

When did it born?

What difficulties did the founders find along the time?

Has A-S change since its beginings?

And so on :baby:

Aqua-Soft was born out of myself and three other peoples love of Aqua during the first few weeks of OSX beta. Myself, Doug (Disciple), Chris (CyCoPaTh) and Kris were all contacting each other trying to pool resources. Chris and Doug had decent websites, Kris's was kinda up and down, and I was using the brand new Wincustomize to distribute my DesktopX dock copies.

I wanted a site, but Dougs site had almost everything currently available under Windows that skinned in Aqua. But Dougs site also had alot of religious stuff (having a MIDI of "When the saints come marching in" screech at you everytime you want to update for icons was funny), Chris wanted to keep his site, and Kris was just kinda out there (a great skinner, super talented guy - just a little crazy). So Chris suggested we build a central point for the four of us.

Mind you, at the time all I was contributing was wallpapers, DesktopX goodies and alot of cheerleading. Call it motivational IM.

Chris & Kris built version 1.0. We uploaded all of the skins we had between the four of us, including tons of resources, and I started giving daily news updates on what was going on in the world of Aqua skinning.

Over the first year our biggest difficulty has been keeping AS hosted. The site lost hosting probably more times than I remember because of bandwidth issues or a server crashing. It really looked like AS wasn't going to survive it's first year. Finally Jef and then Timan stepped in and got everything into shape. Thank goodness for small miracles.

The forums didn't really come until later on, when Jef, TIman, Duckie, Iceman and Goku had joined up. Some really awesome contributers had come and gone, but I have to say that it was Jef and his apps that really set the site on fire.

Chris and Kris got into a fight, both left the site. I don't know what happened to Doug - he would be gone for awhile, show up with a ton of new stuff, then dissappear. I think he became more active during my last 'leave of abscence', but I haven't spoken to him in over a year now. I'm known to come and go. I love Aqua-Soft, but occassionally I get busy or just burnt out. I've been back a few months now and the current staff has treated me far too nicely.

Apple really didn't pay us much attention - which was surprising. Several times they made the rounds of different skinning sites, sending cease & desist letters, and even though they knew about us we were mostly overlooked. Timan can tell you more about the letters, as he dealt with that and I ignored them for the most part.

Thats the amazingly boring history of AS. Timan, Duckie, Jef and Goku have handled the site just fine - it's more popular now than ever, and I dare say it's attracted an excellent member base.

I can tell you this: If it wasn't for the dedication of this handful of people I've mentioned here, the Aqua on Windows community would suck today. Look at ThemesXP, and all the crap OSX skins they offer. I think that every Windows user that loves the Aqua look, the OSX interface, and can enjoy a QUALITY theme on WinXP today, owes a big thanks to the members of this site that have always pushed and striven for that quality. The perfect copy, the exact resource, the best gloss, all because a member of Aqua-Soft was trying to make it real.

And to me, that's everything myself and the others wanted.

#33215

sniff :cry: that brings tears to my eyes.

Very interesting history...

#33216

Where's the puke smilie? :6

#33227

I think one of the reasons for Aqua-Soft's frequent hosting problems in the past was due to the amount of downloadable stuff available on the site itself. Skinners and developers would submit software, wallpapers, skins and other pertinent stuff and Timan or CyCoPaTh would then upload to the area of relevance for all to see and download. The servers and bandwidth got overloaded given the popularity of the site back then. There used to be a count of how many times an item would be downloaded and I remember my contributions alone were downloaded in the hundreds. Others reached thousands. Multiply that by the number of stuff that was available on this site before and you've got server strain.

I believe Duckie still has a complete copy of the old site for posterity's sake.

ps. This topic should be pinned for all new members to see. That was a very nice speech DZ

#33231

site founder badge in less than 2 minutes.. :order:

#33235

Thread title changed to reflect thread content.

Made sticky for you freaks.

Go ahead, post your tales of events and AS history factoids that you think are funny, cool or whatever.

--------------------

deadzombie

Master of the Filibuster

#33237

WOO-HOO! Look at me, I've got a new badge!!! Thanks GOKU!!!!

(Y) (Y) (Y) :own: :own: :own: :who's your daddy: :who's your daddy: :who's your daddy:

#33238

I will never forget aafuss, and cuzzo.

there were few more pests around here as well, including the last evil being maximus..

these were times of intensive war. God i dont know who was worse but these guys were just horrible.

Their spelling mistakes were so horrifying that I cant explain it. They were so freaks even deadzombie cant imagine.

I'm glad we keep filth out of here

:raziel's_death:

#33240

Hey deadzombie, thanks a lot for your explanation. I have always wanted to know how the community grew up from some talented people who liked the Aqua look to the current almost two thousand members community.

Have a few questions tough:

What date did Aqua-Soft born?

What events would you stand out during its life?

I suppose all of you were very proud of what you achieved emulating aqua, but it would be funny to post a screenshot now and see that actually you were pretty far from it

#33241

Doug?

Doug Hoxworth? or a similar name?

Man I remember that his site was on my daily rotation asmuch as 3-4 years ago! (maybe 5).

The red page "christian resources" right. I loved the aqua stuff on that page.

That guy was one of the first aqua resource sites I used to visit years ago.

I can't believe he's related to you guys.

Another guy I remember from the dawn of time is j450n, he's still around.

#33242