Sascha's pissed

Okay, that makes KoL a ripper. He released a VS almost exactly like Longhorn VS. Everybody who made an Aqua VS at A-S is a ripper too. Hell, I'm a ripper by copying Explorer Glass to create something I intend to release soon. Why are you picking on Lou here, when EVERYBODY that released a VS based on a previous theme from Apple, MS, etc.. is even worse because they released their themes? Why not just pick on me instead? Or KoL?

(No offense, KoL, I love your VSs, you were just the first person I thought of when it came to LH VSs. )

the HUGE difference here is that Kol or anyone else who PORTS a visual style says that they are porting that said visual style. They come right out and say, hey this is a port of longhorn slate originally by microsfot and usually most themers will say all images contained in this skin are copyrighted by ___ computer company. In addition 9 times out of 10 the style is based of another author who gives permission.

Kol didnt create his longhorn visual style and say "hey I created this on my own, These images are all my own work. Arent I good?"

I am not picking on Lou. I just wish he would learn to respect others work.

this is all I have to say on this topic. It is just about respect. Kol is not disrespecting microsoft saying that he created something that their artists infact came up with.

This is less to do with what lou did or did not create but his complete and blatant disrespect for other peoples work. I have said this from the beginning.

#222240

Okay...

KoL is porting Microsoft Longhorn Slate without permission.

Lou is porting MINIUM Icons by Sascha without permission.

...?

#222241

liquid if you wish to conitune this conversation with me please use the pm feature.

#222243

I have been reading up on the recent happenings both on aqua-soft and rad-e8, and it seems that everything is quickly growing out of hand. What’s done is done. Lou posted an image of some icons he made, and yes he copied the idea of the MINIUM set for his own icons, and yes that is considered ripping. However, I think that this should never have even been brought to the forums. Everyone has an email address, and we all know how to use the PM system, and those two systems should have been utilized by Lou and Sascha only (as Lou copied Sascha’s work, not every member of aqua-soft). Furthermore, while I understand Sascha’s frustration with being copied, posting the entire event, and posting blatant hints to Lou’s identity (initials LM and the name of the icon set), is immature and counter-productive, as the only result of the post was to give Lou many enemies (which nobody wants). It seems to me that what should happen next is to add an addition to the forum rules which define explicitly the definition of “ripping”, and for those who don’t know, the definition of copyright. The consequence of posting rips and unauthorized use of copyrighted information should be immediate deletion of the thread, and a warning to the user that posted it. Repeated offenses should result in suspension, and then ban. This way, the thread doesn’t turn into a flamewar (which it always will because everyone has to stick their noses in other people’s business), and the situation is left up to the admins and the offending user. All these threads are immature and pointless, and the only result is to hype everyone up, yet again. If we all mind our own business and respect one another, this forum can be a wonderful place to visit. If we use these forums to incite flamewars the result will be a loss of the forum for all, as we have seen before.

-kompile15

well said... and in my opinion all that should be said on the matter... i think the original goal of maintaining rational thought is quickly degrading.

#222252

This whole affair could have been resolved quickly and most importantly privately if Sascha had taken the effort to talk to Lou directly bypassing third-parties (rad-e8 blog/MacNN forums/A-S) instead leaving the responses to other members who weren't even informed about the matter. I do understand that Sascha is a busy man, filled with matters of consequence, yet if it really was that important to him, he could have found time, Lou's MSN address is readily avaliable on many forums, if not it can easily be had by asking someone in the customizing community.

Lou on the otherhand, should have realised the error in his ways the first time around, when he was distrubuting Minium mockups that he had done, they were quickly removed, flames followed, and the whole debacle forgotten. Both parties seemed to have been appeased for the moment, thanks in part to eloquent debates on the ethics of copywright infringment. Any reason that Lou had afterwords quickly wanned with the poll that he posted her on A-S, asking whether or not he should release his newly "inspiried" icons Niobium. Not finding the answer he had wished for (many people wrote "do not release them etc" he should have listend) he chose to set a release day regardless of the fact that he was going to be reprimanded as he was weeks (months?) prior. I truly do sympathize with you Lou, having an entire community, however insignificant it be, come against you as an artist but most importantly as a person must be hard, yet to have the audacity to not recognize the error in your ways is even more dispicable, a simple apology and all would be forgotten, like so many others in the past who had ripped, sure perhaps you would have lost some respect, but that can be gained.

Everyone makes mistakes, yet it is in the manner in which you rectify and learn from them that makes all the difference. And lets face it, most of us have been guilty of passing unreleased material via PM's/IM's/or even e-mail, yet to do so publically is to challenge Sascha himself publically, don't get me wrong, distrubution in whatever form is wrong, but doing it publically is even more so.

I just hope you learn from your mistakes, at the end of the day, you can always fall back on reallife, sometimes people put too much emphasis on abstract things such as the praise they receive from creating [art] work. You're young, and if you truly recreated those icons by hand, you have some amount of talent, yet do respect your fellow artists, because at the end of the day, PostCount/"good work, thanks" replies aside, all you have is respect-something which you have lost today, but can regain, if you choose to do so.

#222261

Look, my whole opinion of this matter is that it was a great thing to happen.

Lou really pushed the line of what is and what is NOT infringement. He believed he was right and stood his ground, and that is repectable. However, when enough people are giving you specific facts as to why what you are doing is wrong, and you disregard with comments lilke "I created them, they are my art and I will do with them what I want" you are asking for trouble.

If memory serves me a few weeks before these nibumfukintheanusum icon previews went up, lou also posted another teaser which were pretty much spitting image of miniumanusface by sasha. This thread was closed and he was warned.

Not to beat a man when hes down, but lou has seemed to have gotten on this holier than thou kick since being the designer for AE-s.

I think that is a highly repectable position, and lou is good at what he does, but sometimes people tend to get too high and mighty and think they are untouchable. I'm hoping that lou has at least pulled something from this, some moral or lesson.

#222262

You all may disagree with me but I think I'm a little less upset with what Lou did and more upset with how Sasha chose to handle it. Instead of dealing with this privately, he chose to involve the ENTIRE community which has caused a lot of turmoil. Also, he should not have revealed the details of this particular incident such as Lou's initials and the actual name of the icons. Why did he do this? Just to make all his fans and all the people waiting for Minium hate Lou? I do hope that's not why because that's just downright imature. I've said all I'm gonna say on this matter. Goodnight

#222268

Where all u guys living at? On Mars or what?

How childish is that rip disscussion? U force a "war" whatever against a 16 years old(am i right Lou?)

Beat him with Copyrightlaws and Respectbullsh**...

Well maybe its common in the US to sue someone back to stoneage, but calm down. Whats wrong on his doing?

You called him a ripper who should be hanged? Well everyone of us shoud hang beside him. We are all wannabes, we want to be Macusers. No one of us ask Apple Inc. for permission on Mod their Styles or Icons. If one single guy, i called him "S", get ripped of his "Intellectual Property" everybody screams. When 21,188 reg user rip off Apple because using there "Intellectual property" than thats normal an ok for all of us. BTW S don't sell his stuff, its donationware, so i don't get ripped in the originalmeanin of the word.

If S making previews on Sunday he must aware that other people will do Icons look like his intellectual property, cause we all want to be/have something we're don't are...Macuser on a PC w/ an AppleInterface on a PC

I remember when Steve Jobs introduce Tiger and shows us Dashboard. I'll ask you, when appear the first Rips(previews, VS) of dashboard and the tiger theme here in this forum? Roundabout 2 weeks later, and surprise surprise we all wan't to have the TigerVS and Dashboard, no one aks, hmm do we rip Apple off...

Most of us has no creativity, but good skills in copying things, thats ok but i think it would be a good thing to do something original and if u can't don't shoot a 16yrs old

Some of you said to Lou: Hey man you have so much skills, and bla bla, do something unique... on the other hand the same people copying(they say: PORT) VS/WB themes and Icons

@ bzeitler:

U release up to 5 PORTS/Updates of PORTS a week and they are all not 100% perfect. Ill wait for a theme of u thats match 100%(because i like WB and Macthemes), take your time and do it well( Quality, not Quantity) and don't say Lou he has to respect someone... Do u respect Apples work? No, or do u ask them for permission? i don't think so...

@ Sascha aka rade8:

I hope u read this and if u like lets discuss it w/ me in german...

I like ur icons very much but please ur "intellectual property" bull****! No one of us can reinvent the wheel. i think.

All ur icons have something "Intellectual property"of Apple.

U flame a 16 yrs old on ur site, call him L.M. and everyone in the deskmodding scene knows who u means. Be more, i dont know, more genourous, see it like a compliment and not as an offend.

Ones more, how can he rip ur intellectual property? Tip: make no previews and sell the icons, when u finished them...

So i will stop now, cause my english is'nt that good to say all i wan't to say

Sascha

#222293

SaOSX >

Most icons that were created for OSX by icon artist (Sascha, Hein, Dave, etc) are done according to Apple Aqua Interface Guideline (or something like that). So naturally they look like the original Apple HD icon.

liquidplasmaflow >

It's not called porting if Sascha is going to release a windows version. And your metaphor about you guys ripping Apple or KoL ripping Longhorn is flawed. Not the same thing.

--

What Lou did is wrong, many ppl advised him on this matter. So what if he recreated the icons. He did NOT design them, hence he is not allowed to release it. That's intellectual property.

#222298

i dont under stand the website ripping thing, i clicked on the link but it looks totally different. some one clue me in.

Here is a post from Macnn:

I wrote an email to cmiVFX about their site and how it was clearly a rip-off of RAD.E8 -- here's the response I got back:

You're right,_we were notified yesterday.

Paid a kid $3k to do it for us and we got screwed. _Re-doing the whole thing this week.

It sucks.

#222330

Most of us has no creativity, but good skills in copying things, thats ok but i think it would be a good thing to do something original and if u can't don't shoot a 16yrs old

If you can't do anything original and rather steal ideas from other skinners, don't show it to the public. Plain and simple.

@ bzeitler:

U release up to 5 PORTS/Updates of PORTS a week and they are all not 100% perfect. Ill wait for a theme of u thats match 100%(because i like WB and Macthemes), take your time and do it well( Quality, not Quantity) and don't say Lou he has to respect someone... Do u respect Apples work? No, or do u ask them for permission? i don't think so...

1. It's not a place for discussion about bzeitler's themes. If you find them not perfect, contact him and help him making them 10000% perfect.

2. The biggest part of bzeitler's ports are themes made by common skinners, not Apple. And he always asks them for permission.

3. Nobody asks Apple for permission because they would never get it. It's simple. Apple is a big company and when we rip off them, it's less harmful (not morally, I'd say economically), because Apple skinners earn money for what they do. Sascha doesn't earn any money for his work. He does it for the community, for us. That's why he, and all other artists in our community, deserve much more respect.

All ur icons have something "Intellectual property"of Apple.

That's only your subjective judgement. For example I find Sascha's icons very different from Apple icons. But it's another subjective judgement, therefore: it's not a valuable argument in discussion.

@Lou: you say you never released them. That's OK. But you showed their previews to the public. Let's reverse the situation: you've been working on an icon set like crazy for ~6 months. You put all your talent in them, want to satisfy people. You trust them and show previews every sunday on your site. Then, all of a sudden, you see your icons on screenshots on forums. That might be flattering huh? But how would you feel if you saw a preview of icon set almost identical to yours without any reference to your work?

Your stubbornness amazes me :slant:

#222331

3. Nobody asks Apple for permission because they would never get it. It's simple. Apple is a big company and when we rip off them, it's less harmful (not morally, I'd say economically), because Apple skinners earn money for what they do. Sascha doesn't earn any money for his work. He does it for the community, for us. That's why he, and all other artists in our community, deserve much more respect.

Makes me think...

In that respect, is it perfectly fine for crackers to make a keygen, hack, crack, or serial codes and give them to people for software they pay for just because it is a big company? Maybe its not morally, but it is right economically?

Apple skinners deserve way higher respect than any of us that create icons, user interface, and/or wallpapers. They created what we are all replacing, emulating, and copying. Aqua-Soft already got a cease and disist letter for making the AquaApps because it was something that was Apple's, not ours, yet we created because we wanted it. We wanted it, and couldn't pay for it (didn't want to pay for it) or wanted a port to windows.

My point is, Sascha did not have to write a large post, remove previews, and say my initials and the iconset name in public. All he had to do was write an email. (In my opinion, it would have been easier and more efficient.) He chose to do it the above way, and made a mess (hence us talking about it here).

Anyways, this conversation is getting nowhere. I think one way, you think another. "Let's agree to disagree." People are never going to agree, Pe8er. You might as well just close this topic, and we can all move on from this mess. You have to realize that I am already sick of it. And if you are the Pe8er I know you are, you are too. Sure, everyone wants to give their opinions, but opinions don't matter to a certain extent, especially in this matter. Our opinions don't matter, only Sascha's. Sascha did want he wanted to do, and I think he did it wrong. You might think what he did is right. End. Of. Story.

// Lou

// Lou

#222340

Yaaadda yadda yadda...

Am i having a deja vu or did we not have this same conversation when the slightly-differently-skewed-minium folders were released?

This is an emulation forum, not your little soapbox. Since you can't be given the least bit of space to stand in because you make speeches, i am closing this nonsensical piece of bandwidth waste.

Thank you very much for playing this little game i like to call "Lets get Aqua-Soft closed for good"

PS: Bzeitler, it is really annoying that you release so many ports man, speciall when they are not 100% perfect, that is just shameful and it makes me puke a little.

--------------------------------

The Topic Has Been Closed

// Seph

#222343