Developing A Game Plan

It seems to me that what we should do here, rather than bombard our hard-working developers with app request after app request, is come up with a game plan of sorts, a prioritized list of what we'd like to see done. Included is a poll to gauge what apps we'd like to see most. My own personal agenda looks something like this:

1. A Finder clone to replace the Windows shell

I think this would be my top item, simply because this would solve 90% of our emulation problems. IMO, this shell should be as close to the OS X Finder as possible, integrating the menu bar into the shell, for instance. I do not think that the dock needs to be integrated into the shell, simply because there is no one dock (out of Moby's, Y'z, or Object) that everyone will agree on. It would be better to leave that decision up to the user, as is the case today.

2. Develop the iLife apps, as well as iCal, Safari, and Quicktime

I realize that half the above apps are already in development, and that kicks ass. I feel these apps are essential to a more realistic Mac experience. These apps are the basic core of Apple's software line, and to produce clones of all of them would be a major feat and a great advance in the Aqua-Soft community.

P.S.- Notice I didn't mention smaller apps such as a pic previewer, calculator, etc. Hopefully, these would be integrated into the shell replacement I mentioned in #1 as smaller, stand alone system apps.

3. After #1 and #2 are accomplished, then worry about smaller apps

I feel that once a shell replacement and the core apps are finished, then we would be able to worry about cloning smaller apps, such as shareware programs like CandyBar and DockFun, etc.

Well, that is my idea for a game plan, but feel free to elaborate on it. Thanks to all our wonderful developers for writing such kick-ass apps. It's you guys that make using a Windows box a little more bearable!

-godpunk

*EDIT*- BTW, I thought I might add that I think it would be better for these apps to be written in C# or a similar language, basically anything but VB. IMO, we shouldn't rely on any 3rd party controls. But that's just how I feel- not meaning to slam VB programmers- you guys are doing a great job (the iPhoto and Safari clones blew me away!), but programs based on C# and the like just seem to be more stable. Again, just my two cents.

#14705

i agree, the efforts should definitely be focused and such.

Also, could we get an Aqua-Soft Wiki (www.wiki.org) going? that would help the ****ies and such.

Furthermore, the programmers of these programs might consider going open-source, so that other programmers could contribute, and the project would get done quicker. just a thought....

#14767

The 'Finder shell', ie: new explorer shell woudl be really hard to make...

I've tried to make a shell before and it led me to realise that I was crap as a programmer. lol. Nah, jk, it would be really hard to start. If one could get a hold of a shell src and grab the 'goodies' from a few different types and sources it would help you a lot...

Hopefully everybody votes in this poll. If you don't vote, nobody will know what you want. Simple as that.

Cheers

#14888

Is LiteStep open source? Can't remember.

#14895

It sure is. -Now everybody can have all the goodness of *.png's on their desktop. lol.

Cheers

#14898

I know what you mean Nobski- a shell replacement would be a huge undertaking. Just look how long hyperb0le has been plugging away at the System Prefernces app! However, I do still think that it's a possibility, especially if it were an open source project. I for one would be willing to contribute and create graphics (as I'm sure others would be willing to do the same). I believe that if our best programmers and artists teamed up, a Finder-like shell replacement could emerge within 3-6 months, if not sooner. Hopefully others will see this as a worthy project to undertake! *crosses fingers*

-godpunk

#14901

I used to use LiteStep as my shell in a whole and never used Explorer (don't remember why I changed...I had a finder bar made for it and a dock and everything...) but yah. Used pngs on my desktop too, which was nice. ;-) It'd be worth a try. I'd like to see something come out of LiteStep other than a theme that could help us. If someone wants to take this up (more like a group of devs) then that would be cool...but I don't do any programming stuff. Only skinning and a lot of graphical work. If anyone needs in help in the graphics area I can see what I can do.

#14902

I dunno who would agree with me on this, but I would rather have a built-from-scratch, specifically designed around the mac interface shell, not a LiteStep theme. I have used Aqua LiteStep themes before, and it can really only be taken so far. By building a new shell ourselves, we can provide ourselves with a shell that matches OS X as closely as possible on the PC rather than making a compromise with an existing shell replacement.

On a different note, just to clarify what iLife is (in case there is any confusion). iLife is iTunes, iMovie, iDVD, and iPhoto. Apple recently bundled these four apps together under one banner as a kind of 'digital lifestyle' package. So in case you were hesitant to vote for iLife on the poll, that's what it is. Sorry I didn't clarify earlier.

-godpunk

#14904

I dunno who would agree with me on this, but I would rather have a built-from-scratch, specifically designed around the mac interface shell, not a LiteStep theme. I have used Aqua LiteStep themes before, and it can really only be taken so far. By building a new shell ourselves, we can provide ourselves with a shell that matches OS X as closely as possible on the PC rather than making a compromise with an existing shell replacement.

Well, it's open source, correct? I don't mean a theme...I have a theme that I did that is pretty convincing I think...but I never released it. It looks more convincing than some screenshots I've seen...

You guys could do what ShellWM did, ie. cut some source out of litestep that isn't needed and add more to it for what WE need to do with it...atleast the Litestep source would provide a base so developers don't start from complete scratch. LiteStep has some nice things in it that would work well for what we need to do.

(God I love how active this forum is at this time of day...and all times actually)

#14909

Oh, ok Tony, I see what you mean now! Yeah, using the source from LiteStep would probably save lots of time...using that as a foundation would be helpful. Like Nobski said...starting with the basics and building around it. I just wouldn't want to use LiteStep itself...it's not set up at all like the Finder, so for that reason alone, I'd ditch it. Anyone willing to help take a crack at this one? I sure am...

-godpunk

#14911

this shell should be as close to the OS X Finder as possible, integrating the menu bar into the shell, for instance

Will you be able to change skins ? (don't know if the concept applies).

I would not want an application/shell that turns everything to the Aqua look with white and grey lines everywhere and an Apple logo in the finder bar. Yes, I know I'm a contrarian but the facts are that eventhough this is AquaSoft Forum making and looking for applications to turn your PC into a Mac if you look at the screenshots of what people post few actually use their PCs as MacOS X clones. This begs the question that people are not honest in posting what they want.

They ask for one thing and demand that every pixel be in the right place but their desktops seldom represent a full MacOS X clone. I'm honest enough to tell you that I like WindowsOS Silver Luna but none of the rest of the Windows Themes. I like Aqua but I get very tired of the white and gray lines and don't like the way an Aqua Objectbar looks on a PC. I also like Sosumu buttons for Phoenix over the Safari clone. So my suggestion is, before you put a lot of time in a project make it flexible if possible to change it, 'cause people change their minds all the time. How could iPhoto get so few votes when it was one of the most requested apps after the dock ?..... makes you wonder.

#14915

Video Mann-

I would say that any shell replacement we make should have the ability to theme. I completely understand where you are coming from, as I switch between themes often too. I dunno how it would work out, but I think that even under a shell replacement, theming through uxtheme.dll would still be a possibility. We'll see....

-godpunk

#14917

I really doubt the finder shell wouuld work out. That is the reason jef has been creating a finder program. That is much more likely to look like the mac finder than a shell for the windows explorer. Its practically impossible to make the windows shell look and operate like the mac finder.

The only way we can accomplish this, is by using a seperate program. It is being developed now already. I'm sure jef will be coming out with a new build soon, (or not). But with each build its gets closer and closer, (and less buggy).

The point is, windows explorer will never look, feel, and operate like Mac os x finder. Its just not in the cards. Unless you can get a programmer from inside Microsoft to release a hacked patch that will completely transform the gui and many other things. Most developers dont have access to that code and dont know how to get into the windows code and break it. Unless I'm wrong about that, tell me, but if it was possible, wouldn't someone have already dont it by now?

Its not in the cards. Jefs finder app it the closest we will come, and so far its pretty darn close!! It will be even closer as he comes out with new builds in the future!

Man, you also forgetting a lot of great apps. The Preview app is a HUGE one that could be dont very well. I think you guys are reaching to high to far.

Lets get realistic here. Can we really emulate iCal??? This program took years of deveopment for the Apple developers to write I'm sure. Some developer isnt just going to wipp it up for the windows platform in a few months. The apps that have came out now are pretty good, like iPhoto, but they are far from what the real things are like.

The Safari app is a much better app I think to tackle because it has a relatively simple interface and there's not many options and buttons and stuff. Beric will come out with a VERY realistic emulation of Safari by the time hes done with this. I dont know about iPhoto though!

#14973

Well JMitch, you have your opinions, and I have mine. I hardly think that the AquaFinder is the end all and be all of emulating the Finder. Until we actually try creating a shell replacement, I don't think we should start deriding it as a hopeless endeavor.

It's rather unfair to come in dissing other programmers ("The apps that have came out now are pretty good, like iPhoto, but they are far from what the real things are like."). At least they are trying. I think they are doing an excellent job providing us with clones of Apple programs, whether you think they are 100% accurate or not.

Ultimately they will decide which apps will be developed, whether it be a shell replacement or an iCal clone or whatever. Personnaly, I have faith that with enough work, an iCal or shell program is possible. Maybe if you gave the other programmers the credibility that you give Jef and his apps, you'd appreciate their efforts more.

-godpunk

#14976

If anyone is interested, I found a CVS repository with a bunch of LiteStep source code here. This could possibly serve as a springboard or foundation of sorts for any Finder shell project. Just thought I'd post my find real quick before class!

-godpunk

P.S.- Jmitch, I really hope you don't take offense to my earlier comments....I assure you there is no ill will towards you, just a respectful disagreement on my part. If I have been rude, please accept my apologies.

#15005

REMEMBER AQUA TUNES ?

I might be totally lost, but it looks like just about everybody forgot about Aqua Tunes. Is that application done already and I do not know what I am talking about ?

If that is not the case , I think that a Aqua Tunes app will be the most usefull since the only credible clone - the AquaTunes skin for QCD is severely limited by the QCD application itself.

I want an application that can display more than 10 songs in its list, and have a meaningfull song collection selection method, not just some usless picture in the left pane that 'just looks' like the real thing.

Therefore PLEASE somebody include the Aqua Tunes in the poll , unless -of course - there is one app already there that does it.

Cheers,

#15007

Originally posted by godpunk@Feb 11 2003, 11:44 PM

On a different note, just to clarify what iLife is (in case there is any confusion). iLife is iTunes, iMovie, iDVD, and iPhoto. Apple recently bundled these four apps together under one banner as a kind of 'digital lifestyle' package. So in case you were hesitant to vote for iLife on the poll, that's what it is. Sorry I didn't clarify earlier.

Like I said earlier, an iTunes clone (such as AquaTunes) would fall under the iLife category.

The last I heard about AquaTunes development was that mmanson was still working on it, but that was at least 3 weeks ago. Anyone have any newer info.? Hopefully we'll see this app again soon....

-godpunk

#15015

I agree. One of the things that REALLY differntiates pc's from macs is the 'feel' of it. You can make it LOOK like it, but you can never be completely comfortable or satisfied until there is an actual shell replacement. So I vote for shell replacement.

#15019

GodPunk, I am not dissing the programmers by any means. I simpy meant to say I it would be a very tough job to even attemp at emulating an application such as iCal.

These programmers have been doing excellent jobs you are right about that. It is tought to achieve perfection. I'm not saying a shell replacement that looks and feels like the Mac finder is impossible. I'm only saying it would be a lot more complicated and tought to figure out and then achieve.

If someone can do this, by all means go for it.

No offense takin whatsoever Godpunk. Peace.

#15021

By having a shell replacement that is themeable otherwise than for aqua-related skins, then wouldn't this just be another complete shell replacement like LiteStep already is...or like the few other ones I've used and can't remember their names? LoL...I don't know if I get exactly what you are saying here guys. Do you mean themeable like the Mac can have different colors, ect. like Windows can...or do you mean making it look like something totally different?

#15131

This topic should probably be pinned, yes?

#15139

How about Sherlock/Find or System Preferences

And why is Quicktime on there? QT already exists on the pc and is skinned just like the version on the mac. So I don't know why its mentioned... and even why someone bothered to make a QT app (saw that in another post).

#15144

Tony-

When I say 'themes', I'm thinking along the lines of msstyles. In other words, yes, it would be, in a sense, like LiteStep in it's ability to be themed. However, unlike LiteStep, it would be a shell that emulates the Finder. I think that's the best way I can put it- hope that makes sense!

Mage-

I too was skeptical about the Quicktime clone at first- after all, we DO have QT for windows. However, after some spoke up saying that QT is virtually impossible to modify in ResHacker (i.e., replacing the buttons), I could see the logic in starting from scratch and making a clone.

A system prefs app is already in development by hyperb0le. Hopefully it'll be out soon. You DO have a good point in mentioning Sherlock, though. I too would like to see this app developed. If a Finder shell ever does get started on, I think the following apps would need to be developed as 'system apps' to go along with it:

Sherlock

Address Book

Terminal

Preview App

iCalc

A 'Notepad' like app

I'm sure there are more that I'm forgetting. Hopefully we will be able to discuss the possibilites of a shell replacement with the programmers soon.

-godpunk

#15177

What is the 'finder' shell exactly?

#15220

When we refer to the shell, we are talking about how an OS navigates and displays the files and information on the hard drive. Basically, the shell encompasses the file system and some elements of the GUI such as the windows and such. I'm kinda bad at explaining this, can anyone else word it better? Thats the best way I know to explain it.

When we say 'Finder shell', we are talking about replacing the Windows shell with a shell that acts as a Mac.

-godpunk

#15221