Clarifications.

First and foremost, allow me to request that this be handled with a proper frame of mind. Open to suggestions, and peace of mind.

I've heard from Myuu minutes ago that she was given the suspension from A-S. It came on as a surprise for me, for looking through her previous posts, there seems nothing warranting that sort of response.

Firstly, if her replies might have seem direct, she has made it clear of her intentions and stated her rationale behind her actions. In other words, they are justified.

Secondly, if taken with a proper attitude, one can see where she's coming from, and that her suggestions do possess value for consideration.

Thirdly, she doesn't argue or show any signs of outright rebellion against Mods/Admins. Like every other member here, she'd be satisfied with a reasonable response.

No one would have liked it when given an attitude with no fundaments. She wants to know why things happen. And that's perfectly fine. And it should be answered with valid arguements, or at least what one can expect from someone with sound mental faculties. Not with "Because I say so" or "Because I see fit" or "Because I don't find her post relevant".

We come in peace, and require understanding from fellow members and users of this forum.

Logic and respect is fundamental in an online community, because there's no other ways of portraying understanding through this virtual network.

Much can be said with regards to this issue, but keeping it succint, I do hope to hear from what the rest has to say. And keep this thread pure with only logical replies, and cool-headedness.

Thank you for being understanding.

#114503

To add insult to injury, her suspension was simple cause of disliking her comments. Some staff may retaliate with "If you don't like it; Leave" or other similar things, but it comes down to two things; The first is; The staff not abiding by their own rules and remaining fair is hypocritical. It also looks immature and unjustified. The second; Without members, a community cannot exist. Some people have been muttering things. They don't like what's happening. And if pushed, they will leave. Others would follow. Soon A-S could very well become nothing but staff and new members. Old and respected members, lost. Is this what we want?

That'll probubly get me in trouble. But freedom without voice, is not freedom.

#114504

The mods and admins have justified themselves over and over again. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean we aren't justified. 99% of the time, a reason is given for why a thread is closed.

It's just that you people keep pestering us. We have lives too, and do this as a hobby. You don't seem to understand the of trouble running this site is. We are forced to receive hateful spam and constantly think about what's best for the site, not what we want.

You guys obviously don't know the story. Myuu has been sending LOTS of REALLY hateful private messages to Tim. He did not deserve this sort of abuse.

#114508

just as the title says, can we get a clarification on what that means by hateful pm's... like insulting or fatal attraction-esque? were they in response to anything or come out-of-the-blue? i mean, depending on what it was, it should be commendable that she actually used the PM system as opposed to broadcasting a disagreement for everyone to see and get involved with.

#114510

@contra: I understand where you are coming from. But since Myuu is not present to verify that, perhaps we can just request answers to why she's banned in the first place?

#114511

Originally posted by contrasutra+Feb 15 2004, 06:10 AM-->

QUOTE(contrasutra @ Feb 15 2004, 06:10 AM)

The mods and admins have justified themselves over and over again. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean we aren't justified. 99% of the time, a reason is given for why a thread is closed.

It's just that you people keep pestering us. We have lives too, and do this as a hobby. You don't seem to understand the of trouble running this site is. We are forced to receive hateful spam and constantly think about what's best for the site, not what we want.

You guys obviously don't know the story. Myuu has been sending LOTS of REALLY hateful private messages to Tim. He did not deserve this sort of abuse.

Then were is the justication in this? Myuu says the following;

#114513

@contra: I understand where you are coming from. But since Myuu is not present to verify that, perhaps we can just request answers to why she's banned in the first place?

its a 24 hours suspensions.. lets not blow things outta proportion.

I think Stevie BM is the only truely sincire member of staff. He does his job, for the community. He always notifies. He always tries to be polite, and if he is wrong; He admits it staight and apologizes.

Also, don't think of us as stupid. We've seen how certain Staff members have been constantly abusing their powers without reason or motivation. I'm betting this thread will be closd, by Timan, for the sole reason of "I don't want to discuss this".

::cough:: :rant:

and finally the RULES say any negative comments towards the staff gets a 24 hour suspension... "call Timan "an ass"" that negative in my opinion.

-The Unknown

#114518

Originally posted by theunknown+Feb 15 2004, 06:33 AM-->

QUOTE(theunknown @ Feb 15 2004, 06:33 AM)

::cough::  :rant:

and finally the RULES say any negative comments towards the staff gets a 24 hour suspension... "call Timan "an ass"" that negative in my opinion.

-The Unknown

I didn't mean that offensively. I meant from experience. You could very well be a good, sincire moderator; But I haven't seen so. Before my time, probubly.

If negative comments resulted in suspensions, a third of the active members would have been suspended many times.

I especially like how the rules are enforced when they're wanted.

Originally posted by Timan@

I got a new idea for a rule.

- No questioning...

You guys think you are free to do whatever you please here, well hate to break it to you lads but you don't. We make the rules so either follow them or leave.

Discussion Ended!

#114521

I didn't mean that offensively. I meant from experience. You could very well be a good, sincire moderator; But I haven't seen so. Before my time, probubly.

my point exactly, we are here for a reason. unfortunately not everyone understands y.

After reading that, more than one of you will agree that to call him an "ass" would be... fitting.

you can call him an ass all you like, as long as its not to a mod or admin.

If negative comments resulted in suspensions, a third of the active members would have been suspended many times.

negative comments to STAFF i see very few of those. but even those between members i try and resolve. and finally there are a number of suspension, its just most ppl understand y it happend, accepted it and moved on

-The Unknown

#114525

I do not know exactly what PMs Tim got. All I know is that he tells me A LOT that he's gotten an insulting PM from Myuu.

All I can say is this: You people need to get lives. I know I'm not the most exciting person, but I don't obsess about some web forum. If it's crap,it's crap. Don't spend so much time thinking about it.

#114528

Originally posted by theunknown+Feb 15 2004, 06:51 AM-->

QUOTE(theunknown @ Feb 15 2004, 06:51 AM)

you can call him an ass all you like, as long as its not to a mod or admin.

negative comments to STAFF i see very few of those. but even those between members i try and resolve.

-The Unknown

To quote Myuu: "Us LOWLY members aren't good enough?"

What makes it okay to insult (I'm definately not counting "ass" as an insult) a member, but not a staff member? That's the exact thing that is infuriating many.

#114529

i don't know much about the incident or any related experiences, so i can't formulate any true response that will conform to any perspective here. maintaining a forum is a difficult task, and the tension between freedom of speech and administrative organization is necessarily a challenge to manage--it's impossible to please everyone, but it's always about compromise.

whenever conflicts occur, the first route to amendment ought to be communication. clear discussions, without ambivalence or ambiguity, foster 1) the true elucidation of prior events, 2) a transparent conception, and 3) a tendency for agreeable solutions. throw away your ragged fabrics of prejudice, anger, and resentment, and embrace a civilized dialectic. heated debates with more emotion than logic tend not to produce such solutions.

let's be clear and rational. let's not stifle the word and keep communication open. a 24 hour suspension isn't terrible at all, but it perhaps is undeserved. i'm unable to reach any conclusion without more evidence, but i know that discussion, and thus, rational dialectic, has suffered.

i've only been a member for a short period of time, but i still don't engage much in these types of conflicts, mainly because i never understand their content. why do people have such problems? why is it so hard to get along here at a-s?

i don't know if the rules are actually inclusive or not. it's rather orwellian in a sense. but for true organization, we can't have this sort of stratification, explicit or otherwise. in a sense, trivial stratification is often the worst sort. it encourages this constant tension between groups. there's enforcement, and then there's transgression. i really love this community, and i'm entirely honest. i spend hours browsing the forums, eager to help out, eager to chat with members, to pm them, to discuss serious and goofy topics through instant messenger clients. i enjoy coming here to see the great work the fabulous artists and developers introduce to us. i enjoy coming here to forge rapport with the community members. i enjoy coming here to engage in the lively discussions. i'd love to see this community rectify all of its problems, not through forceful impositions of arbitrary power structures, but through a collective union of ideas and opinions.

#114530

you must understand when there are just under 14k members we will never get everyone to agree.

with that said what can we do, if we follow the rules and suspend everyone for saying negative comments we get told were "abusing our powers", if we show some understand towards members we get told were inconsistant, if we ignore it we get told were not doing our job. what choice have we left?

-The Unknown

#114531

Originally posted by theunknown@Feb 15 2004, 07:16 AM

you must understand when there are just under 14k members we will never get everyone to agree.

with that said what can we do, if we follow the rules and suspend everyone for saying negative comments we get told were "abusing our powers", if we show some understand towards members we get told were inconsistant, if we ignore it we get told were not doing our job. what choice have we left?

-The Unknown

And how many of these 14,000 post their views? If there are around 250 active members (not 1-posters), that's only 0.018% actually posting regularly enough to voice a comment. At least sit down and decide on these things so that all incidents are treated in the same way.

There is a big difference between Enforcing Rules and Abusing Powers.

With the former you have reason. You have motive. You also have support, because these are the things that hold stability together. Without there would be chaos. I'm not denying that. The later introduces things that build to chaos and tear apart communties. There are no rights, motives or support. It's essentially cheating a site out of it's own members.

If every developer had been treated the same, and suffered the abusive ways; Would they have stook around to give us such wonderful programs? Would artists and skinners have contributed?

Whether you personally agree or not; The staff are the things that clean A-S' veins. They keep things flowing nicely, remove clogs. But at the moment they're cutting off their own circulation and resulting in killing members off. Killing A-S.

#114535

of course there's no way everyone can agree. in fact, there doesn't even exist a calculus that can determine preferences for the community (and i can prove that, famous result in economics). in any case, we need to work together, not against each other, towards an agreeable goal.

first, ignorance is never the answer. if member transgressions have been committed, it is the job of the mods/admins to take notice, and if necessary, take action. part of maintenance is exactly that--taking notice.

but showing understanding doesn't necessarily imply inconsistency. i don't see the logic here. mods/admins can be understanding and impartial whenever such transgressions arise. there is no implication here. the inconsistency arises from the mode of understanding, as we shall call it at this juncture. it maybe construed as being too lax, too flexible, but that is not the case. one can be understanding, but still maintain a firm, but fair, rule. to paraphrase william james here, it is foolish to assume beliefs without sufficient evidence prior to that conception.

finally, following the rules and suspending everyone without good reason is equally foolish. a community is predicated on the existence of members. while i agree, we need to regulate members' behaviors, it's a delicate matter, and one that cannot be treated so loosely and rashly. facts and beliefs must be made clear first and foremost, and only then can appropriate judgment occur. moreover, staff retaliation ought not to be encouraged. one of the surest ways to maintain order is for everyone to remain civilized. fight anger, not with anger, but with understanding.

#114536

ok, im gonna do my best to keep an open mind... how would u as the members handle this situation?

we will neva come to an agreement about the past but, so lets now try for the future.

if the current RULES arn't working, help us make some new ones.

-The Unknown

#114540

it's been a long night, but i have to say, i concur. i like your effort, theunknown. let's all make an effort to work together on this. it's a dynamic process, but if we can discuss and interact, i'm sure we'll have fantastic results.

#114543

ok my two cents...

If Timan was infact called an ass, the suspension is justifiable because of the rules. I have to side with the Mods just because its impossible to be partial to everyone. What's fair to one person might outrage another. They have a very hard and time consuming job and I have much respect for that because this is a great community, best i have ever seen. Lately there's been a bit too much whinning and moaning about rules and such. I totally respect all the rules because well this isnt my site, it's Timans. If you disagree with a rule you should rather express your opinion of it without using anything other than facts and respect.

Also, Contra, the whole you people need to get lives was pretty much ignorant... There was no need of that. You can proabably see i'm on this site atleast 8 hours a day and I very much have a life. I'm not trying to correct you, your allowed your opinion just please dont make them personal.

#114546

By my count at this moment there are:

442 users with 50+ posts

1038 users with 10+posts

(I believe this does not take into consideration general discussion posts?)

I think the biggest problem as of late has been a tendency to take everything way seriously; and I'm talking about members and (some) mods indistinctly, examples of this would be

• The fact that Seph was made to "formalize" his news posts and not add his personal flair notwithstanding the fact that he was (in my opinion) the most dedicated news poster
  
• The way people claim not to want the general discussion area and yet by the looks of their profile it's the area they are most interested in. We are by nature a community with a sense of humor and all of us have resorted to it every so often so to me it looks cynical when we turn our noses up at it.
  

Those were my 2 cents.

Disclaimer: I have a flame retardant suit, fire at will .

#114549

geez, all this fuss over a mere 24-hour suspension? Get a life people. I used to suspend myself for weeks at a time to get away from this goddamn place.

A day's suspension is not gonna hurt. Besides, it's Valentine's day (or was 2 hours ago). Go and ****in party, not sit like a geek on a message board.

#114550

@Sid: It's not the suspension which is of major concern here. We are talking about the bigger overall picture of Mod/Members interaction, and how we can actually improve things.

@theunknown: Your efforts are indeed commendable. I do hope everyone else is as open-minded and receptive.

It's great that things are still kept well under control in this thread. It seems that if a proper form of communication is maintained, and that everyone can abide by the rule of respect and understanding, whilst giving the other party the benefit of the doubt, the forums will be a much more enjoyable place to be.

Hope something constructive comes out of this rough spot here.

#114552

maybe myuu will come back and not post crap, mocking the mods in every thread/

as stated earlier, its a website for the love of buddy christ. get over it

oh and what you dont see in myuu;'s recent posts are all the posts that have been deleted by mods.

the ban was right

#114561

Originally posted by silencedge@Feb 15 2004, 02:10 AM

@Sid: It's not the suspension which is of major concern here. We are talking about the bigger overall picture of Mod/Members interaction, and how we can actually improve things.

I think the mods acted quite responsibly. If you send a PM to an admin calling him an ass you deserve a ban and I think a 24-hour ban is quite appropriate. If the ban was permanent, then I believe this thread was called for and the admins/mods behaviour would have been deemed appropriate, but in this case no way.

Bottomline: You piss off an admin, you get a ban. Period.

#114563

You guys just do not seem to get it. You keep questioning our actions here.

Like I've said before it is no longer allowed!

Myuu.EXE was banned because of her actions. Disrespecting an admin, which was myself. The reason she was banned is not a public matter and it should not be made one.

This thread is closed and any other thread on questioning actions here.

Here are some guidelines they use at neowin so we are now going to use them here.

Take this as a warning for everyone who feels they can post what they want...

We require that members respect the decision of moderators or admins. Threads and posts questioning the actions or decisions of forum moderations will be deleted on sight, and the appropriate action taken (up to and including forum bans) against the thread starter and/or participants. However, as a member you reserve the right to PM any moderator or administrator regarding action taken.

We have the right to change or alter these rules at any time and an Administrator’s word is final.

#114571